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[Brigit]

Hello everyone, I'm Mira.

My story is very similar to Brigit's, long distance EMR for over two years. I feel that we are at the end of the road, but neither of us want to end things and we are still loving and supportive. I've been encouraging him to look inward and to do what's best for his family. I want to be with him, but I'm ready to do the work to extract myself so that we are both in a place to have healthier relationships.

Thanks everyone.

Hi Mira,
It’s hard, isn’t it… are you also married?
I can tell you really want what’s best for him.  I know the feeling.

[mirabelle]

Hi Mira,
It’s hard, isn’t it… are you also married?
I can tell you really want what’s best for him.  I know the feeling.

Hi Brigit,

I am not. I was single the whole time. I am divorced though with children so I do understand how complicated it is to leave. He says his primary reason to stay is for the children and secondary is that he loves his wife. He admits it is not as full as our love, but he is optmistic about his marriage.
I've always had the urge to withdraw at these statements, but I get confused by his wanting me to stay. I want us to figure it out together if possible.

[Brigit]

Hi Brigit,

I am not. I was single the whole time. I am divorced though with children so I do understand how complicated it is to leave. He says his primary reason to stay is for the children and secondary is that he loves his wife. He admits it is not as full as our love, but he is optmistic about his marriage.
I've always had the urge to withdraw at these statements, but I get confused by his wanting me to stay. I want us to figure it out together if possible.

Do you think that you encouraging him to do what’s best for his family might be getting misinterpreted as your lack of being “all in?” And thus, he can’t let go. I ask because my MM (I read the abbreviations but can’t bring myself to write MOM lol) tried breaking it off when I suggested it might be truly best for all if we kept it at being friends. He immediately said ok that’s it, no more. It lasted a week or two before he called to get back together.

[mirabelle]

Do you think that you encouraging him to do what’s best for his family might be getting misinterpreted as your lack of being “all in?” And thus, he can’t let go. I ask because my MM (I read the abbreviations but can’t bring myself to write MOM lol) tried breaking it off when I suggested it might be truly best for all if we kept it at being friends. He immediately said ok that’s it, no more. It lasted a week or two before he called to get back together.

We both admitted to each other that we love each other deeply. He has said numerous times that if the conditions were different, he would have pursued a relationship with me. 

I have been more concerned with the toll it will take on the family he is trying to protect. I have been more or less content with our arrangement.

[Brigit]

We both admitted to each other that we love each other deeply. He has said numerous times that if the conditions were different, he would have pursued a relationship with me. 

I have been more concerned with the toll it will take on the family he is trying to protect. I have been more or less content with our arrangement.

❤️ I understand compleyely.  Very tough place to be.

[mirabelle]

❤️ I understand compleyely.  Very tough place to be.

Thank you, Brigit. I appreciate you talking with me about it. I realized how lonely it is to have this problem because it ignites a lot of moral concerns (and rightfully so) in others.

How are you feeling about your relationship today?

[Brigit]

Thank you, Brigit. I appreciate you talking with me about it. I realized how lonely it is to have this problem because it ignites a lot of moral concerns (and rightfully so) in others.

How are you feeling about your relationship today?

Yes, it is impossible to talk to anyone about it. I trust my BFF but I don’t want to burden her with the information, so I don’t talk to her about it.

That is such a good question - how are you feeling about the relationship “TODAY?” It changes daily, doesn’t it?

I feel like I’m settling back into more observational mode, of him (MM) specifically. I am trying hard to detach but somehow he knows the exact right moment to pull me back in. I don’t think that continuing in an EMR forever is a viable path for me, so the question is, how much longer can this last before I have to move on for the sake of my sanity. Protecting both families is my primary concern and my secondary concern is that I don’t know how much he is holding back because he knows we can’t go “all in”, and how much is me just being more emotionally invested full stop. I see signs of true love/care but we have basically agreed to guard our hearts and make no promises because we know we are not in the position to keep them. Maybe a long talk is overdue. I am more afraid of hearing that my deep feelings are reciprocated than of breaking up.

[mirabelle]

Yes, it is impossible to talk to anyone about it. I trust my BFF but I don’t want to burden her with the information, so I don’t talk to her about it.

That is such a good question - how are you feeling about the relationship “TODAY?” It changes daily, doesn’t it?

I feel like I’m settling back into more observational mode, of him (MM) specifically. I am trying hard to detach but somehow he knows the exact right moment to pull me back in. I don’t think that continuing in an EMR forever is a viable path for me, so the question is, how much longer can this last before I have to move on for the sake of my sanity. Protecting both families is my primary concern and my secondary concern is that I don’t know how much he is holding back because he knows we can’t go “all in”, and how much is me just being more emotionally invested full stop. I see signs of true love/care but we have basically agreed to guard our hearts and make no promises because we know we are not in the position to keep them. Maybe a long talk is overdue. I am more afraid of hearing that my deep feelings are reciprocated than of breaking up.

Yes, exactly. I have a more distant friend who is in an affair, so it has been therapeutic to share with her at times. I'm fortunate for that.

I'm in a similar place of going through detachment. We have been doing our long talk over letters, and I am waiting for him to confront the questions posed in my last letter. I had asked him if our love was important enough to pose the deep and uncertain pain to his family. And I asked him if he wanted a future with me. I also challenged him on the conflicting desires he has - maybe they are not resolvable, but if he can look inward and understand it better, it would probably help both of us. 

I wonder about why it is so hard for me to leave. I think I want to give us a chance to resolve it together before having to make decisions by myself. 

One unexpected thing that has helped me lately to talk and discuss this with myself has been reading the book, "The Laws of Human Nature" by Robert Greene. I don't necessarily subscribe to all the advice he gives, but the frameworks provided are good exercises. It really confronts why people might be attracted to certain people, what they believe vs how they behave, and so on. I've been reflecting on my life and why this relationship became so important to me. I've always had a lonely streak throughout my life and was resigned to that being normal. It wasn't until I met him that I felt someone saw me and loved me for who I was. We also align on a lot and we naturally engage in a creative and productive way over our interests. It has been fulfilling. I think part of me is afraid that I will go back to my lonely life, but I'm trying to be okay with that. The book would suggest I use my weakness as my strength and try to channel my loneliness, empathy, and affection into something fulfilling.

[Brigit]

Yes, exactly. I have a more distant friend who is in an affair, so it has been therapeutic to share with her at times. I'm fortunate for that.

I'm in a similar place of going through detachment. We have been doing our long talk over letters, and I am waiting for him to confront the questions posed in my last letter. I had asked him if our love was important enough to pose the deep and uncertain pain to his family. And I asked him if he wanted a future with me. I also challenged him on the conflicting desires he has - maybe they are not resolvable, but if he can look inward and understand it better, it would probably help both of us. 

I wonder about why it is so hard for me to leave. I think I want to give us a chance to resolve it together before having to make decisions by myself. 

One unexpected thing that has helped me lately to talk and discuss this with myself has been reading the book, "The Laws of Human Nature" by Robert Greene. I don't necessarily subscribe to all the advice he gives, but the frameworks provided are good exercises. It really confronts why people might be attracted to certain people, what they believe vs how they behave, and so on. I've been reflecting on my life and why this relationship became so important to me. I've always had a lonely streak throughout my life and was resigned to that being normal. It wasn't until I met him that I felt someone saw me and loved me for who I was. We also align on a lot and we naturally engage in a creative and productive way over our interests. It has been fulfilling. I think part of me is afraid that I will go back to my lonely life, but I'm trying to be okay with that. The book would suggest I use my weakness as my strength and try to channel my loneliness, empathy, and affection into something fulfilling.

Ooof. You hit the nail on the head here. I can absolutely say the same in each of these sentences.

I do also have very strong alignment on many things with my BH, and there are ways in which my M-o-M and I are not aligned, so I am not sure it would be a better fit with him overall. I guess I actually don’t know him well enough to say for certain since we have really guarded ourselves so far.

Also, blowing up the families is not really an option in my mind, and our kids are all elementary age or younger, so it’s not like there is any option to be together and cause less pain on the horizon.  Maybe parting ways and talking again in a decade is the best plan… we’ll be old and gray by then but I have a feeling the connection would endure.

I’ll look into the book.

[mirabelle]

Ooof. You hit the nail on the head here. I can absolutely say the same in each of these sentences.

I do also have very strong alignment on many things with my BH, and there are ways in which my M-o-M and I are not aligned, so I am not sure it would be a better fit with him overall. I guess I actually don’t know him well enough to say for certain since we have really guarded ourselves so far.

Also, blowing up the families is not really an option in my mind, and our kids are all elementary age or younger, so it’s not like there is any option to be together and cause less pain on the horizon.  Maybe parting ways and talking again in a decade is the best plan… we’ll be old and gray by then but I have a feeling the connection would endure.

I’ll look into the book.

I'm very curious what your reflections will draw out. 

My little ones were also very young (3 and 5) when I separated from ex. In my case, I needed to separate either way to be in a better emotional state. It was a very positive experience in the end because I was much happier and could be a better parent for my children with my energy. Of course it was still painful when we were going through it and the children sometimes ask about living altogether, but overall it has been positive. I understand everyone's case is different. The general wisdom is to leave for yourself, not for another person. The children will be okay if you put the effort in. 

My MM is tied up in a high profile career and I'm not sure he could afford his home on his own, certainly not two such homes on their incomes. I think there is a lifestyle he is also trying to protect for himself and for his family. 

As much as I can understand that, I also understand it would be devastating for his wife and children to learn of this. It may already be eroding the relations by his not sharing his authentic self with them. I also hope that the sacrifice is not done too much at his expense or this can also negatively affect those relationships.

Your idea of parting and letting time pass has come across my mind too. I think people who love one a lot another tend to stay in love. Maybe that is how we will proceed too.

[Brigit]

I'm very curious what your reflections will draw out. 

My little ones were also very young (3 and 5) when I separated from ex. In my case, I needed to separate either way to be in a better emotional state. It was a very positive experience in the end because I was much happier and could be a better parent for my children with my energy. Of course it was still painful when we were going through it and the children sometimes ask about living altogether, but overall it has been positive. I understand everyone's case is different. The general wisdom is to leave for yourself, not for another person. The children will be okay if you put the effort in. 

My MM is tied up in a high profile career and I'm not sure he could afford his home on his own, certainly not two such homes on their incomes. I think there is a lifestyle he is also trying to protect for himself and for his family. 

As much as I can understand that, I also understand it would be devastating for his wife and children to learn of this. It may already be eroding the relations by his not sharing his authentic self with them. I also hope that the sacrifice is not done too much at his expense or this can also negatively affect those relationships.

Your idea of parting and letting time pass has come across my mind too. I think people who love one a lot another tend to stay in love. Maybe that is how we will proceed too.

It is a testament to your effort and love that you were able to leave a bad situation and that your kids are thriving as a result. I don’t think divorce has to be some awful thing, but my marriage is a good partnership and I just can’t figure out what I truly want—and that is in any case heavily influenced by how I think my husband and kids would be affected. I think it would crush my husband, who is a good man. My kids would be ok, but the logistics would suck for them.

It’s actually a bit foreign to me to even truly think about what *I* want. It’s not a muscle I exercise frequently.

I often think of the adage, “man plans, god laughs.” It really feels like we are only partly in control of our destiny, and sometimes i think it’s a minority part.

[mirabelle]

It is a testament to your effort and love that you were able to leave a bad situation and that your kids are thriving as a result. I don’t think divorce has to be some awful thing, but my marriage is a good partnership and I just can’t figure out what I truly want—and that is in any case heavily influenced by how I think my husband and kids would be affected. I think it would crush my husband, who is a good man. My kids would be ok, but the logistics would suck for them.

It’s actually a bit foreign to me to even truly think about what *I* want. It’s not a muscle I exercise frequently.

I often think of the adage, “man plans, god laughs.” It really feels like we are only partly in control of our destiny, and sometimes i think it’s a minority part.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Bringing up the adage makes me think you are able to keep distance from yourself to practice awareness and that you have humility in not admitting to know what is best. 

It would be very interesting to know what you want if you pursue that question further. 

I get quite confused myself over these questions. I get to look at different strata of social classes and I see people doing life in many different ways. Sometimes the only gauge I feel that I have of people that I want to emulate is how light people are. I don't know how to explain it, but their smiles don't look forced, their presence doesn't feel imposing, their laughter is loose and from the belly, their minds are full of ideas and they have energy for living life. These people exist in all the strata, so it's not been something I can tie to the external features they are defined by (wealth, relationships, etc.). I think if I had to venture to say what they might possess, it is having the conditions to practice their authenticity. I think that it's possible in all sorts of conditions, but we have to learn ourselves, impose ourselves, and establish boundaries to make it so.

[Brigit]

I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Bringing up the adage makes me think you are able to keep distance from yourself to practice awareness and that you have humility in not admitting to know what is best. 

It would be very interesting to know what you want if you pursue that question further. 

I get quite confused myself over these questions. I get to look at different strata of social classes and I see people doing life in many different ways. Sometimes the only gauge I feel that I have of people that I want to emulate is how light people are. I don't know how to explain it, but their smiles don't look forced, their presence doesn't feel imposing, their laughter is loose and from the belly, their minds are full of ideas and they have energy for living life. These people exist in all the strata, so it's not been something I can tie to the external features they are defined by (wealth, relationships, etc.). I think if I had to venture to say what they might possess, it is having the conditions to practice their authenticity. I think that it's possible in all sorts of conditions, but we have to learn ourselves, impose ourselves, and establish boundaries to make it so.

You put that very well. I know exactly what you mean and it’s a huge part of my attraction to my EMR partner. Authenticity is inspiring, we all strive to be our authentic selves, no matter how imperfect, but it can be hard to do. Seeing someone doing it well, in any context, can be magnetic.

[mirabelle]

You put that very well. I know exactly what you mean and it’s a huge part of my attraction to my EMR partner. Authenticity is inspiring, we all strive to be our authentic selves, no matter how imperfect, but it can be hard to do. Seeing someone doing it well, in any context, can be magnetic.

Nothing to add, just feeling pretty down. 
One thing that really bothers me is that he told me that I was the love of his life.
I've only ever said things like that when I could back it up with commitment. 
I start to feel that my man wouldn't have put me through this and then I feel distant.
I wish all this didn't bother me so much.

[Brigit]

Nothing to add, just feeling pretty down. 
One thing that really bothers me is that he told me that I was the love of his life.
I've only ever said things like that when I could back it up with commitment. 
I start to feel that my man wouldn't have put me through this and then I feel distant.
I wish all this didn't bother me so much.

I’m sorry you’re feeling down today. Hopefully tomorrow gets your mind off things.

I agree that saying I love you normally implies a commitment that may not be possible in an EMR. Part of what’s difficult is not really knowing what exactly to count on or expect. I guess more communication could help in some cases. Do you feel like you have unanswered questions? My MM and I do the opposite, it seems. We have discussed how we don’t want to over analyze the situation or talk about feelings too much because of exactly these types of issues.  It’s bloody hard either way.

Sending you hugs.

[mirabelle]

I’m sorry you’re feeling down today. Hopefully tomorrow gets your mind off things.

I agree that saying I love you normally implies a commitment that may not be possible in an EMR. Part of what’s difficult is not really knowing what exactly to count on or expect. I guess more communication could help in some cases. Do you feel like you have unanswered questions? My MM and I do the opposite, it seems. We have discussed how we don’t want to over analyze the situation or talk about feelings too much because of exactly these types of issues.  It’s bloody hard either way.

Sending you hugs.

Thank you for listening and I'm returning your hugs. I am feeling supported by this support group thanks to you.

There are unanswered questions, yes. MM is ruminating on them for the last month. 
1) Given his and my heavy involvement, is it loving toward his wife to carry on this way? 
Even if he and I are emotionally closer, he still loves and cares for her. It bothers me that he could do that to someone he loves. We made love shortly after their 20th anniversary. I wanted him to reflect on whether that was who he was before I treat it as a condition to make my own judgments. Or at least explain how he is seeing it as ok.

2) Is it worth it to risk their well-being over our relationship? 
I don't have visibility to his life there so I want to understand how he is looking at it.

3) Does he want to continue our close relationship in the future?
I do.

Like you, I also discouraged us from getting too involved in feelings at the beginning. That probably lasted for a year - nobody really forced anything, but the closer we got, the more these things started to surface and become issues. By the time we fell in love, I started to really question what we were doing. I don't know that I could keep the relationship at a level that has the texture of love, but is inherently casual. The cost of all the emotions that go into it have indirect effects on the other parts of our lives. We are fulfilled by it when we are mutually investing, so we need to figure out how to make that compatible with our lives.

[Harlow]

Thank you for listening and I'm returning your hugs. I am feeling supported by this support group thanks to you.

There are unanswered questions, yes. MM is ruminating on them for the last month. 
1) Given his and my heavy involvement, is it loving toward his wife to carry on this way? 
Even if he and I are emotionally closer, he still loves and cares for her. It bothers me that he could do that to someone he loves. We made love shortly after their 20th anniversary. I wanted him to reflect on whether that was who he was before I treat it as a condition to make my own judgments. Or at least explain how he is seeing it as ok.

2) Is it worth it to risk their well-being over our relationship? 
I don't have visibility to his life there so I want to understand how he is looking at it.

3) Does he want to continue our close relationship in the future?
I do.

Like you, I also discouraged us from getting too involved in feelings at the beginning. That probably lasted for a year - nobody really forced anything, but the closer we got, the more these things started to surface and become issues. By the time we fell in love, I started to really question what we were doing. I don't know that I could keep the relationship at a level that has the texture of love, but is inherently casual. The cost of all the emotions that go into it have indirect effects on the other parts of our lives. We are fulfilled by it when we are mutually investing, so we need to figure out how to make that compatible with our lives.

I don’t know about your MM, but mine hasn’t had sex with his BW in nearly 2 decades. We’ve made love on their anniversary and it didn’t bother me at all about how he “treated her” because he wasn’t treating her differently than on any other day. He’s always been kind to her, overly kind, in fact. Her life has actually benefitted by my presence in his life. I’m the one meeting his needs so it’s no longer a chore for her. Happy man means happy husband for her.

I don’t see EMRs as a triangle, necessarily. I see the MM as having two women in his life that have nothing to do with each other. Our R is completely separate from their R. It will never serve your R with him by being concerned about the way he manages his R with her, except by protecting his and your privacy as best as you can.

[mirabelle]

I don’t know about your MM, but mine hasn’t had sex with his BW in nearly 2 decades. We’ve made love on their anniversary and it didn’t bother me at all about how he “treated her” because he wasn’t treating her differently than on any other day. He’s always been kind to her, overly kind, in fact. Her life has actually benefitted by my presence in his life. I’m the one meeting his needs so it’s no longer a chore for her. Happy man means happy husband for her.

I don’t see EMRs as a triangle, necessarily. I see the MM as having two women in his life that have nothing to do with each other. Our R is completely separate from their R. It will never serve your R with him by being concerned about the way he manages his R with her, except by protecting his and your privacy as best as you can.

I really appreciate you lending this perspective from your experience.

I think what you described makes sense for your situation since they are not intimate that way. That's not the same in my case. They are not intimate often, but they still are. In addition, he tells me that he loves her and is optimistic about their marriage. 

It didn't make sense to me why he wanted to continue with me if he felt that way. At the time he said that, I thought it implied that we would start to put an end to our relationship. But he maintained he wanted to continue with me. He partly addressed the confusion of it by saying that he does love her even if is not an all-encompassing love like what we have. He has also said that his BW would be heartbroken if she learned of this. 

For most of the time, I concentrated on myself and how I feel about all this and let him worry about things over there, but it does affect me that he leads her on this way. And it affects me that he pours so much love into me and then says that he is optimistic about rebuilding his marriage. 

Any insight you have would be appreciated.

[Sunshinechica]

I really appreciate you lending this perspective from your experience.

I think what you described makes sense for your situation since they are not intimate that way. That's not the same in my case. They are not intimate often, but they still are. In addition, he tells me that he loves her and is optimistic about their marriage. 

It didn't make sense to me why he wanted to continue with me if he felt that way. At the time he said that, I thought it implied that we would start to put an end to our relationship. But he maintained he wanted to continue with me. He partly addressed the confusion of it by saying that he does love her even if is not an all-encompassing love like what we have. He has also said that his BW would be heartbroken if she learned of this. 

For most of the time, I concentrated on myself and how I feel about all this and let him worry about things over there, but it does affect me that he leads her on this way. And it affects me that he pours so much love into me and then says that he is optimistic about rebuilding his marriage. 

Any insight you have would be appreciated.

Hi Mirabelle 

I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time.
My xMM always maintained that he loved his W. 
She was a kind, good person. I met her and yes she seemed sweet and nice. 
This lead to a lot of turmoil as I just could not understand. 
He never said he was unhappy. Rather actually that he was. He loved her and at some point he loved me too. 

He had a lot of guilt. Always. About her, about his family, how he would be viewed, about me. 
The first time he told me loved me was after two yrs. 
We had just been intimate and he said it for the first time 
I love you, but I can't see you anymore. 
(This was a lie) As we continued for more years after. 

But there was always guilt and confusion. For a long time I had so many questions. Why? 
Why are you doing this, why are you with me? How can you say you love her and be with me. 
Lots of pain. And lots of things I felt went unanswered. 

At some point I had to stop asking and analyzing because it left me feeling more distraught and empty. 
This is what I think some people can split themselves or compartmentalize better than others. 
It is like a part of yourself that was "lost or unseen, or a need unmet" is now seen, met, being fulfilled. 
And so you can love someone be intimate with them and also love another. 

He never had answers, because I don't think he wanted answers I did. 
So I had to start looking internally and asking myself was this enough. Was I getting my needs met was I ok having parts of him? 
The answer for me was no. It was not enough 
I needed and wanted it all. 
I had to be the one to end it because he never would. 

I am much happier now. 
When I took the focus off him and his confusion and asked myself what I needed. What made me happy, what needs I needed. 
Then I could ask if the relationship I had met it 
As long as I kept looking to him for answers. 
I just got guilt, confusion, and no real change to look inward.

[mirabelle]

Hi Mirabelle 

I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time.
My xMM always maintained that he loved his W. 
She was a kind, good person. I met her and yes she seemed sweet and nice. 
This lead to a lot of turmoil as I just could not understand. 
He never said he was unhappy. Rather actually that he was. He loved her and at some point he loved me too. 

He had a lot of guilt. Always. About her, about his family, how he would be viewed, about me. 
The first time he told me loved me was after two yrs. 
We had just been intimate and he said it for the first time 
I love you, but I can't see you anymore. 
(This was a lie) As we continued for more years after. 

But there was always guilt and confusion. For a long time I had so many questions. Why? 
Why are you doing this, why are you with me? How can you say you love her and be with me. 
Lots of pain. And lots of things I felt went unanswered. 

At some point I had to stop asking and analyzing because it left me feeling more distraught and empty. 
This is what I think some people can split themselves or compartmentalize better than others. 
It is like a part of yourself that was "lost or unseen, or a need unmet" is now seen, met, being fulfilled. 
And so you can love someone be intimate with them and also love another. 

He never had answers, because I don't think he wanted answers I did. 
So I had to start looking internally and asking myself was this enough. Was I getting my needs met was I ok having parts of him? 
The answer for me was no. It was not enough 
I needed and wanted it all. 
I had to be the one to end it because he never would. 

I am much happier now. 
When I took the focus off him and his confusion and asked myself what I needed. What made me happy, what needs I needed. 
Then I could ask if the relationship I had met it 
As long as I kept looking to him for answers. 
I just got guilt, confusion, and no real change to look inward.

Yeah...

Thank you for writing that all out, Sunshinechica. I feel much less lonely hearing these accounts. Yours resembles mine, I am guessing that's what is happening here too.

I wanted to give him a chance to advocate for himself before I decide for myself, but I am guessing it will end in sadness and confusion.